Thursday, October 13, 2011

How Young Is Too Young for 13.1?

I knew this day would come and I’m glad it did – but, not without some reservation.

If you spectate enough races and hang around at enough finish lines, you can’t help but be inspired - unless you’re this guy and you just want to kill runners, probably because you are jealous.

I hate runners

Three years ago I decided running was cool. Then I decided I really liked triathlons. Ken decided the same thing. This has meant that we have dragged our kids to countless finish lines since January 2009.

Consequently, our kids have mastered the race expo and know how to score the best free stuff. They have gotten very good at cowbell ringing and have added “Looking good! Looking strong” and “Keep it up!” to their cheering repertoires (I long ago told them to NOT yell “You’re almost there” at mile 23 of a marathon). They have come to understand the value of layering clothes when going to watch a race. They are skilled at not looking down when they go into porta potties and know to always bring a change of shorts for mom at the end of a race.

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The kids at mile 20 of the Boston Marathon 2011

Now, they want to race themselves and to be part of the action.

Both of our kids have done a few 5Ks and 10Ks. Pretty standard stuff for their ages (14 & 10). But now, my son Sam,14, is enthralled with the Rock ‘n Roll series and wants to do is first half marathon.

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Sam and Ken running the 2010 10K Turkey Trot

I am torn.

I want to support him in all things running and I love his enthusiasm for the sport. He has done at least eight 10Ks, his best time being 54 minutes. He runs with his middle school cross country team. Yet, I wonder if the training and running of the 13.1 mile distance is too much for a 14 year old. Will this stunt his growth and keep him from getting hair in all the right places? Will he damage some growth plate and chafe his little nipples? What will become of him?

In regards to running FULL marathons, www.running.about.com says this: “A lot of doctors recommend avoiding extreme distance running for kids and young teens because the repetitive trauma may cause damage to bones that are still growing.”

In looking at the Denver Rock ‘n Roll Half results from last weekend, there were  a total of 25 12-14 year olds who completed the race (9 girls, 16 boys). The youngest age allowed is 12. Most marathons require that an individual be at least 18 before he/she can participate. In the U.K., you have to be at least 17 to do a half marathon race.

I know Sam has his whole life to run races. There is no rush. I also know that with the proper training he could complete a half marathon and he and I would have a great time experiencing this together.  More than likely, we will wait a few years, but who knows? A compromise might be to agree we would walk/run a race rather than run the whole thing.

What do you think the youngest age is a person should run a half marathon?  How about a full?

At what age did you do your first half or full marathon? I was 41 when I did my first full. Three months later, I did my first half (yes, I do things backwards).

SUAR

PS: The winner of the “Day in the Life” contest was Allison from the (Mis)Adventures of the Johnson Jocks. I loved how she incorporated butts and penises into her day. She also teaches a community school class and had them do a “Day in the Life” based on mine. Check out the picture of SUAR on the overhead!image

Thank you, thank you to all of you who entered. I read each and every one of your Day in the Life posts. I feel like I know people better when I read about how they spend the little moments of their days!!

64 comments:

  1. I say let him go for it with a run walk. Can't be any worse than a day at the amusement park.

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  2. I LOVE LOVE LOVE that you taught them NOT to say, "You are almost there at Mile 23 of a marathon" A friend and I actually had this conversation at the Army 10 Miler this weekend. You can't say "You are almost there" until less than a mile to go. That should be written in every spectator booklet!

    I say run/walk it too!

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  3. I did my first half at age 19, and even waiting until that age, the race was still hard on my body. I feel like 14 is so young for that. I agree with the U.K; 17 is a good age. Compromising on walking part of it at least wouldn't exclude him from the race, sounds like a good idea.

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  4. Our local physician (he does marathons and ultras) just ran the Maine 1/2 marathon with his son who is 14 as well. So I guess he thinks it's ok.

    Another friend of mine pointed out that during the course of a soccer game, they probably run a 10k. So if you had back to back soccer games (which many kids do..) then you could say that's like running a 1/2.

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  5. I started running in 3rd grade, nothing more than a 5k though until I was 12. At 12 I graduated to my first 10k (Bolder Boulder) but had yet to discover the 1/2 marathon distance. I think 14 could be acceptable to start training for that kind of distance but the build up in mileage should be a long process, maybe even a year or so. I also had a few high school athletes that I coached that got into 1/2s during the summers that did well with the distance since they took it easy in getting to that point.

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  6. Tough call! I really have no idea how I would handle that... my gut says 16 for a half and 18 for a full, but I really have nothing to back that up.

    Good luck coming up with a mutually agreeable and safe decision!

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  7. I think if he expressed interest himself without pressure then let him but a run/walk would be safe.
    I ran my first half at 28 and also my first marathon 4 months after my first half.
    The last race I was at there was a 13 year old running the half, there with his dad but running alone, he is fast too finishing in 1:30 I think.
    I have also been to a bunch of races where I see the same little girl at. She is only 5 and has run many 5 and 10k's. Her parents say she loves it, but I know lots of others have said she is too young.

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  8. As a youth xc coach, I think they should wait until at least high school when they have trained high(ish) mileage for at least one year. Then it should feel pretty natural to run that distance, albeit at a much slower pace than they run their 5ks. At middle school age you just want them to love to run, and running too far without a solid base (30-40 miles a week) can be a big turn off for a kid (and a little painful).
    That said, my 12-year-old informed me yesterday that he wants to run a marathon with me next year. Hmmm. We have to really watch out for their knees and heels (most common injuries I see) during growth spurts.

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  9. My daughter (age 11) started running a couple years ago, much for the same reason your kids do. My husband and I run all the time and do a lot of racing, she was sick of just watching. :) I was really nervous about how to properly train her and did some research. On one website I found an easy rule I now follow, the longest distance that any child should run should be the grade they are in. 5th grade=5 miles. Works for us. I don't want her to get burnt out too soon, she has a lot of running ahead of her (I hope!)

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  10. I did it backwards too, and ran my first full at 27 and my first half at 28. I don't think I even knew that doing a half was an option at the time. It wasn't in the race I chose for my full anyway.

    I am not sure what to say on this. There was a little girl, like 10, who nearly beat me at the Derby Mini. She was happy the whole time and ran with her dad along side. It seemed cool at the time, but when I thought about it later, I wasn't really sure if it was something I would let Keira do at that age for the reasons you mentioned.

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  11. I think it is great your son wants to run a half, let him do it. I suggest a full medical examination with his doctor and a very strict training regiment. In that I mean, his training plan is clear and concise and he follows it to the word. Also make him understand the perils of over training and the importance of healthy eating, hydration and proper rest. I think this is a wonderful opportunity for a memorable experience.

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  12. I ran my first half at 15 and my first full at 16. I know I was a few years older than your son, but I never saw any ill effects of starting long distance at that age. If anything, I think it was great for me, even in just developing as a person (disciple, working towards a goal, etc).

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  13. I don't really think there is an age that is "too young", or at least, if there is, he is long past it, IMO.

    I wanted to do my first full at 13. My parents would not let me. I did it at 17, after never having raced more than a 10k. I trained for it completely on my own on the country roads around my house. I did my first half a year or two later.

    One thing I will say about starting young, is that I was so excited to do it I didn't have any fear of the distance like most people do these days. I wasn't nervous about the race. I did one 20 mile long run, and I felt ready. I didn't fuel along the way... I stopped for water twice in my training run. Basically, I was excited to do it and had no reason to be scared like lots of first time marathoners do. I was actually less nervous at my 1st marathon than I was at my 2nd.

    I know it's only one person, but Golden Harper, co-founder of Altra Zero Drop was running marathons at 10 and he seems to have turned out alright. Check out the third post on their blog, it's about his world record for his age group:
    http://blog.altrazerodrop.com/posts/

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  14. Interesting question, I looked up a few of our local Half-Marys and the 14 and under age group is really sparse! Just think he might take his age group!

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  15. Why does he want to do it? Maybe tell him that when he can go sub 50 in the 10K he can do a half... or when he turns 17... whichever comes first.

    I would just get concerned about getting enough training in to do it w/o injury AND w/o compromising other normalish teenager-y things... other than sneaking to smoke pot and drink booze, that is... stuff like ummmm homework and staying awake in class.

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  16. I'm going through the same thing with my son (12). In 6 months there's a really cool marathon and HM, on a dirt trail. I will run the full, and if he ran the half the course could bring us together at the end.my only worry is his bone development..he is about the size of a 9 yr old

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  17. Wow - Interesting question. I ran my first 10 miler at 20, first marathon at 28 and don't really remember my first 1/2.

    I think 13 is to young. It might be better to think about it in terms of growth instead of age. I would think not until after he has had is growth supurt and has gotten used to his new body. Given this thought, it would be different for boys and girls, which makes sense to me.

    I honestly don't know if a run/walk is better since it is not really changing the distance - which is the issue and is only increasing the time.

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  18. I ran my first (and only) full at 19 and from then on have done halfs. I'd say if he can handle the training then to go for it.

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  19. I think it depends on the kid. Does he eat well? Does he know when to stop if he needs to? What's his maturity level? That's probably a kid to kid decision!

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  20. Probably have to take this one on a kid-by-kid basis as if they can handle it.

    But if you keep him to a run/walk method in both training and racing you should be cool.

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  21. If kids are allowed to do the things the do in wrestling, I say let him do it. Just adjust the training mileage and paces. And I agree run/walk is probably a great idea!

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  22. I think he has two good role models who will be able to monitor and advise him on his training. Sounds like he's well educated in the field, has already built up to a 10K and is smart. I'd say let him go for it and run the race with him.

    Our son did his first 5K at 3 months.

    Ok, yes... he was in the jogging stroller.

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  23. Holy shit, I won!!! SWEET! This made my day, as I am miserable and knee deep in T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland. More like "The Wasteofmytime."

    I can't wait to sport my SUAR t-shirt during my runs, which will more than likely include copious pit stops as I ramp up the mileage. To think how you'll be right there with me when I take a dump. I love it.

    Re: how young is too young? Good question. In my May marathon, I started next to a 10-year old girl who did the half and absolutely SPANKED it. Did a blog entry on it: http://johnsonjocks.blogspot.com/2011/05/that-girl-can-move.html

    In the Ironkids scene, there is also a teen (or maybe she's 12?) who is INCREDIBLE and seems to be handling her races well. Google "Team Winter." Really inspirational. She may actually be at sub-1:40 for her halves these days.

    Personally, I think your son should go for it!

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  24. My brother did a half when he was 13. By high school, he was in varsity track and cross country in the 9th grade (he had to be able to run an under 5 minute mile to even get into the qualifiers). He is now 38 and got back into running, and is training for his first marathon. Dude is FAST.

    What I am trying to say is that it depends on the kid. I would have died doing a half marathon at 14 because my hips got all crazy then. My brother was running 5 minute miles.

    Maybe make him do his training on trail runs... it decreases the repetitive motion issues because the ground is uneaven. Just a thought.

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  25. Not a doctor but if you are properly trained at his age what are the downfalls?

    I think the big one would be burnout. Get tired of the sport at such a young age and we should be fostering it.

    That being said if you treat it like you are covering the distance and not racing it I don't see the harm in allowing him to do it. Control the environment.

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  26. Seriously...make him wait!! I am 42 and doing my FIRST half on the 29th...I have been agonizing over being last and passed by many older but in better shape than me NOW I am thinking of 14 year olds cruising by...lord knows any 14 year old could whip my butt in a half but, I say let them wait til they are at least 16. ;-)

    That way they can get away quick in their parents convertible BMW...before I cross the finish line and think about upchucking in the passenger seat.


    ;-)

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  27. Hmm...tough call. High school age seems appropriate. Back in the day, I started running 10 milers regularly with my CC team. 22 years later, I'm still running and loving it more than ever. I bet he would be fine. ;)

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  28. This is interesting that you posted this. After completing my first half ironman last month my daughter surprised my hubby and I by requesting that she too do the 1/2 Marathon in April of next year. We looked up the age requirement and she meets it. She is only 12. I guess I never second questioned it because it was her idea, I support her and frankly if she suggests anything regarding physical activity I'm all over it. We are doing a run/walk and I suggested that from the get go so that might be another reason why I'm not hesitent. I don't think I would agree to a full even when she meets the age requirement of 16 at our local one here in Oklahoma. Anyway, she does soccer, Lacrosse and triathlons so her going out for a 1/2 doesn't phase me, but then I'm also told that I'm in the running for "worst mother of year award" too :)

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  29. Allison: you have to email me b/c I can't comment on your blog for some reason and I need your shirt size and address:
    beth@shutupandrun.net

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  30. The biggest risk of running long at an early age is burning out. While he is potentially out pounding the pavement in training at age 14/15, his friends will be in playing video games. The problem with that is by age 25, he may decide to stay in and play video games because he has burned out and it might be his friends who are now out running.

    One of my daughters ran a 6 hour run when she was Sam's age, she did 27 miles and did not burn out. Rather, college Basketball took care of that.

    If Sam want's to try the half marathon, just make sure his time spent training is limited and ALWAYS fun.

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  31. I like the walk/run compromise. That way he gets to experience it and you don't feel like you are stunting his growth.

    Oh and I ran my first marathon this past Sunday and at mile 16 a man said to me, "You still have a long way to go." I almost stopped and kicked him the shin, but that would have taken up much needed energy.

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  32. I don't think 14 sounds too young if it's something he wants to do, but then again I'm not a doctor or a parent.

    I looked up our local marathon/half marathon (Mercedes in Birmingham, AL) and in the half last year in the 12-14 AG there were 15 female and 23 male finishers. In the 15-19 AG there were 61 females, 58 males. That being said, it doesn't sound like an uncommon desire or something that couldn't be done. (This is a half with about 3500 finishers)

    For a compromise: is there any way he could participate in a half marathon relay? Would that give him enough of the race feeling or spark without risking injury, burnout, or any of your other concerns?

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  33. A 12 yo girl blew past me in the final mile of my half marathon. We both finished in 1:38. I looked her up ... last year, at 11 yo, she finished in 1:37. Amazing through and through. Then, I look at my own kids, and I think it's just too far for him.

    So long as the desire is coming from within the child, no one's pushing, and he can change his mind ... go for it.

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  34. Not too young at all. Probably too young for a marathon - just because of other safety concern like hypovolemia and dehydration - but I don't see why a strong teen brimming with energy couldn't do a half. We were very out-doorsy growing up and would cover miles and miles of rough terrain with no problem; distances only got tough when I got older!

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  35. The OC marathon this year had a slew of kids running it in some kind of club. I just went to the results and the lowest marathon age grp was 16-19. But when I chose the group "unknown" and searched, all the kids results showed up. 59 kids under 16.

    Four eleven-year olds. WTF. I think this is insanity. I thought it was insanity (disturbing) when I was watching them run by at mile 20 while waiting for my friend.

    I kind of feel like maybe 16 is alright for a half marathon. I don't know though, that is just an off-the-cuff number, though. Each kid is different.

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  36. I've read a lot of the comments and in general I think I agree.

    My first thought is to never say "no" to such a desire in a kid. It's a healthy activity, it's a safe thing to get into, and it's obviously a very family based activity.

    However, I agree that there is a 'He's still growing' point to look at. While doctors will always argue in both directions, I think he could definitely complete it without incident.

    Will he understand all the risks? No. Will he understand how strict the training schedule has to be? No. I never did when I was that age.

    So with that, I'd say tell him he can, but give him a rather extended training schedule that he has to complete first. If he misses a week in a "normal" plan you might start to wonder if he's ready at the end. The extended time will give him the ability to do it in the end, do the best to avoid injury, and keep you from being super strict with him (he can miss a day every once in awhile and still be fine).

    My dad struggled with the same issue when I wanted to start weight lifting at 15. He never liked the idea, but he essentially taught me a very drawn out schedule that kept me hurting myself and him from worrying.

    Best of luck!!

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  37. I honestly have never thought about the age issue. My son and I have ran a couple of 5K's together, but he has not had a desire for longer distances. I have a friend who's kids are 12 & 14 and they do 10K's with their cross country team. I never hear them mention half marathons. Perhaps there is a reason for this. I say run/walk or wait. I think. I totally just pulled that answer out of my ass.

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  38. I'd say if he fully understands what's required of him - in training and nutrition - let him do it but make it clear that it's fine if he doesn't actually RUN the whole thing. Encourage him to approach it as a learning experience, not an actual race.

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  39. Don't let him.It doesn't matter how fast he is. I'm 13 and my fastest 10k time is 48 minutes. This summer before I turned 13(I was 12)I was getting ready to run a half marathon.In early July I was diagnosed with a stress-fracture.I had to take a month off of running and it ruined my cross country season.

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  40. He is ready and he is in good hands. He has the best coach ever! I know you are so proud of your kiddos. My favorite days are the ones when it's a family affair on race day. My 1st race was a half and I was 42.

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  41. Anon: thanks for your input. But, if you are 13, I don't think you should be reading my blog!!!! I don't let my own 14 year old read it.

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  42. Let him run a half if he wants. I ran mt first half marathon when I was 14. It is something I'll never forget. I had never run further than a 10K before. I "hit the wall" at mile 12 and finished in just over 2 hours. It made me prepare better for all my races after that. I didn't do a full marathon until I was 41 but I've done a half almost every year since I was 14.

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  43. My husband and I JUST had a similar conversation. Our son is 2.4 yrs old now and we could both agree that he's too young, though I think he could possibly be 1/3 of a sprint triathlon team. Anyway, we stopped the discussion before it got too heated b/c we have different ideas about how soon the little man can start running races with mama. I'm curious to find out what conclusion you come to.
    Maybe you can interest your son with just focusing on SPEED more than distance for now?

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  44. Would it be worth it to consult some professionals as well? And maybe his doctor. I mean heck, don't women talk to their doctor in a similar manner when talking about running while preg?

    On another note, if you don't want him to do the 13.1 mile maybe you can pep talk him into building up to that distance some day. And for now you could find a 12K or 15K for him to do instead for now.

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  45. I would say talk to his Dr. and maybe the high school track coach and see what they say. The walk run approach is good but there shouldn't be any reason he couldn't do an "easy" effort kind of half.
    And THANK YOU for the teaching them to NOT say you are almost there.

    The Kidless Kronicles

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  46. My son did 2 half marathons last year, he was 9 at the time. He did one slowly with me, and finished in 3 hours, and the other in 2:45 I think? After I think he could have run another, for real.

    I'm not sure if I could help, but feel free to email me if you have any questions.

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  47. i didn't do any races longer than a 10K until after college, mainly because i ran cross country and track all the way through HS and college so there wasn't much opportunity to do long races w/o hurting your season. but i did start running 8 miles a couple times per season as a freshman in high school...so around age 14. later in high school i ran 10-12 miles a couple times. i'm running the columbus marathon this weekend and saw that their cut off age for the half is 12. i would think that the run/walk idea is good, as long as your son can stick to it and not just run. could make some good family memories that might not happen as he gets older. :)

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  48. I did things backwards. I did my first marathon before my first half. I was 24 when I did both. But then again I didn't start running until I was 23. Late bloomer.

    I say that if he takes training slowly, why not?

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  49. P.S. I look like I'm dying in that pic from the Turkey Trot. Must have been the morning sickness. :-)

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  50. I think it's great that he wants to do a half. If he's already run 8 10K's then I'm sure he has his technique down. It would be like a 3M warmup, a 10K, and a 3M cool down. Plus, he'll be training, so it's not like he's just gonna go run cold turkey, and you can gauge his long runs over time and determine if he is indeed ready for the half! Just remember the 10 year old has to wait til they're 14 too!

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  51. Our pediatrician (sp?) said to avoid long distance with out kids until they're at least 16. Something about the growth plates in their knees.

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  52. I think it depends on the kid. If they want to run and will train well, let them do it. Or if they end up walking a lot, they'll learn a huge lesson about training.
    I lived in Hawaii when in 8th grade and swam on a swim team, triathlons were just getting popular back then (early 80's) and I did an Olympic distance triathlon with no extra training. Also, in 6th grade did a 50k cross country ski race just for fun. Was on the ski team but did not do any extra "long" skiing to train for the event. Obviously, neither of these two events are specifically running but I think it's a matter of how well and how fast and how hard one pushes oneself if there is going to be ill effects for going further distances.

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  53. I love your blog and rarely leave comments but here goes. Your son wants to run the half. You didn't plant the idea in his head. He wants to do it. Most kids his age want the next video game available. You probably know this already, but there are a lot of good resources regarding kids running distances on Runner's World.

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  54. There is a 10yr old in NE that has already run 4 half marathons with his dad. I say you run it with him to make sure he is okay, but let him go for it!

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  55. First half at 45 and first whole marathon at 46 - but that was after 20 years of Army running and lots of 10Ks & 5Ks.

    I was a volunteer recently at a TriKidz event. Ages 6 - 14 competing. It was very obvious during the event as to which kids wanted to be there and which ones were probably talked into the event. It was very painful to watch some of the kids finish their runs. Many probably got discouraged and vowed to themselves never to do this ever again.

    My advice would be to first get a very good physical to ensure that there is not some underlying medical condition. Kids are very smart. If something hurts, most won't push and keep going and really injure themselves.

    I agree with an earlier comment, many kids just want to be non-active and watch TV and play video games (as evidenced by the pandemic number of overweight children in America).

    Be supportive and run together for his first one.

    Some of my best races have been with my children. Pr's go out the window when there is an opportunity to have a finish line picture with your children.

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  56. Our XC coach (who's run 13 Leadville 100s) says a half shouldn't be run "hard" until the body is pretty much done growing in height. He said he's seen too many stress fractures with young bones from the continuous hard stress. Ryan ran the Georgetown to Idaho Spgs 1/2 this year, his first half, at age 16. He wanted to do it last year but I said no....and I think he was thankful for that later.

    I guess what do what you feel comfortable with...maybe he could just run is easy and take some walk breaks at the aid station.??

    One of the RnR's has a 10k. Forget which one but it couldn't be too hard to Google, if I weren't so lazy.

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  57. I say if he can do it and slowly build up to the distance, why not? He's got you and your husband to help him with his progress. At a 12 hour endurance run I did in September, there was a 14 year old who did 40 miles.

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  58. Great question as I was shocked at the starting line of the Portland Marathon last week to glance over and see a very tiny person with a bib. I thought about her a lot, wondered if she was walking...etc. It bothered me enough that when the results were posted, I discovered she was an 8 year old running the half marathon. Curious then, I discovered that a couple of 12 year olds did the full and judging by the time, one of them ran the full. In my opinion, definitely too young.

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  59. Beth,
    As per usual we are on the same path. Haven't commented in a while because how many times can a girl say "me too!!!"? But our son (remember kids are same age) just asked to do a RnR Half. We are looking at Chicago next summer.
    We didn't give it too much thought. He runs XC, and longest run has been 8 miles so far. He'll be 15 by the time the raace happens. Seems like the perfect time - unless he beats me...then it was too soon.
    Doooo it.

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  60. hahahaha - I spelled my name wrong on my comment!
    WTF??

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  61. Only 2 years late!
    For anyone reading this in 2013-
    I did a half marathon at age 12. I had been running for about 8 months and had been playing sports that include lots of running(soccer and lacrosse) for 7 years. I did the race slowly and felt fine, playing a full soccer game a few hours after. Which may not have been the smartest choice but I felt I had made a commitment to my team. Anyways back to running. At the half marathon I don't believe there was anyone younger than 11 or 12. For full marathons I believe the age is 14 but it always depends on the kid and their training, etc.

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  62. My daughter just turned 12 and ran two 1/2 marathons in the same month. She did great and was not too tired or sore afterwards. One was the Seattle R&R this past weekend. I ran with her to make sure she was ok. She loves races and wants to sign up for more. Because she has had no problems at all thus far I will let her continue. She's determined to carry on with them so I will try to get her some training so she can avoid injury. I told my daughter I had my doubts whether it was a good idea but we made a pact that she would not continue if she felt pain or much discomfort. She did well and is very proud of herself and she should be.

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  63. My son ran his first half at age 11. We did short walk breaks when he needed them but for the most part we ran the whole way. He ran a 2:27 for his first and at mile 11 he asked when we were going to run our next one.

    He has been running 2 - 3 times /week under a structured plan that I set up and the only goal for the first half was completion. We have already signed up for a fall half and the plan is to pace slightly faster than last time and only take a min or two off the time.

    Just to put his training in context he is a very active pre teen that is also in a competitive ITF Taekwon-do program. He runs to get stronger at TKD and TKD helps his running.

    Balance of time is the key. He wants to be more competitive on the running front but I try to make sure he has a good life balance.

    That being said I feel that he could have tackled the half distance at 10 if he had taken an interest in running earlier.

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  64. It's been awhile but I stumbled upon your post. I started running at the age of 14. During the summer of 2009, I ran my first 5k in 24:05. During spring of 2010, I ran track and took my time down to 21:03 as well as improving 48:25 to 45:37 in the 10k. In June I signed up for my first half marathon in November (age 15 and 11 months). I completed the race in 1:59:22 with very little distance training beyond 8 miles. Great experience.

    Let your 10-year-old run 13.1 at 14 if they like.

    Have fun.

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